> 0 Running to Do Evil (Ep. 124) - Freakonomics Freakonomics

Running to Do Evil (Ep. 124)

Listen now:

Ted Kaczynski, Federal ADX Supermax prison in Colorado, 1999. (Photo: Stephen J. Dubner, Getty Images)

Our latest podcast is called “Running to Do Evil.” (You can download/subscribe at iTunes, get the RSS feed, or listen via the media player above, or read the transcript.) It features a prison interview I did in 1999 with Unabomber Ted Kaczynski, whose younger brother, David, turned him in.

When we all learned last week that the alleged Boston Marathon bombers are brothers, it made me think of the massive leverage that an older brother can exert on a younger one. Ted and David Kaczynski were extraordinarily close for many years, and shared a view of the modern world as impure and overly industrialized. But as Ted went further down the path toward fundamentalism and violence, David not only extricated himself but ultimately made the painful decision to tell the FBI that the terrorist who had become known as the Unabomber was likely his brother.

The prison interview with Ted Kaczynski was conducted for an article I published in Time magazine. Much of the conversation that day concerned the relationship between Ted and David:

TED KACZYNSKI: It was in many respects, not in all respects, but in many respects a positive relationship from my point of view. But I don’t think it was from my brother’s point of view. And in the end it turned out to be disastrous from my point of view, as you can see.

Also from the podcast:

When Ted was arrested, David fought hard to keep him from getting the death penalty. This made Ted angry; he wanted the death penalty. So where the rest of the world sees David Kaczynski turning in his older brother as an act of heroism, Ted sees resentment. Where the rest of us see David pleading for his brother’s life as an act of mercy, Ted sees it as further punishment.


Ever since Ted’s arrest, David has worked hard to try to repair some of the damage done by his brother. While Ted never has never expressed regret or apologized to the victims, David did. He donated money; he toured the country speaking against violence. It is bizarre, to me at least, listening back to this tape of Ted. He makes it sound as if he is the aggrieved party. Can you imagine having an older brother like that – who tells you that up is down and down is up? Soon you might start believing him. And if he has bad intentions, violent intentions, well, you might start believing that those are your intentions too. We don’t know enough yet about the Boston bombers to say for sure if Dzhokhar, the younger brother, was pulled into his older brother’s orbit or whether he followed willingly. But we do know that David Kaczynski didn’t do what the younger Tsarnaev brother allegedly did. He didn’t join forces; he didn’t capitulate; he didn’t run to do evil.

Further reading: a recent interview from NJ.com with David Kaczynski about the Boston bombings (before the suspects were known) and an essay David wrote for the book Brothers: 26 Stories of Love and Rivalry; an FBI summary of the Unabomber and the New York Times’s coverage of his trial; the Unabomber’s “manifesto” (which led, ultimately, to his being identified). The title of this episode comes from the Al Cheit prayers of the Yom Kippur liturgy (further commentary here).

David Meiklejohn

Great podcast - you pitched the questions perfectly. The momentary silence after you asked Ted whether he still loved David before he answered "no" spoke volumes.

Matt F

Dubner, you are a first rate interviewer. It couldn't have been easy to get that guy to open up.


Is it possible to get Dubner's entire interview audio with Ted Kaczynski?


why won't you release the full version??


Hi. I have pet peeves. I have lots of pet peeves. One that is currently on my mind is the deal with UPC codes. It drives me nuts that products--especially large and difficult to move products--only have a UPC code on one side. I always use self-checkout and I always buy the big boxes of Diet Coke, big bags of dog food, etc. and I'm a little old lady. But even if I weren't a little old lady, why not jut put the darn UPC code on every side of the box and be done with it? It would be so much more convenient for everyone concerned.

Another thing that gets to me is handicapped stalls in bathrooms. I'm on a walker and I always use the handicapped stall so that my walker can go in with me. Well, for some reason they always place the large stalls for people with disabilities the furthest away from the door! What are they thinking? It is more difficult for us to walk, so why not make it the closest to the door? And in a small bathroom, the walker makes for a tight jam with other bathroom guests. In a very large bathroom, it's just that much farther to walk.

And if anyone rethinks public bathrooms, while they are at it: put a trashcan by the door. I like to use a paper towel to open the door handle so I would like to dispose of it while I am exiting.

I don't know if any of this interests you, but it's providing me with a chance to spout off. I would also be interested in knowing if female astronauts wear bras. They wouldn't need them where there is no gravity, right?

I enjoy your show very much.