Sure, I Remember That: A New Marketplace Podcast

Do you remember this skeet-shooting outing with Stephen Dubner, Kai Ryssdal, Barack Obama, and John Boehner?

Our latest Freakonomics Radio on Marketplace podcast is called “Sure, I Remember That.” (You can download/subscribe at iTunes, get the RSS feed, listen via the media player above, or read the transcript below.) It’s about false memory, particularly in the political realm, and how we are more capable of “remembering” an event that never happened if the event happens to synch up with our political ideology.

The piece is based on a fascinating new paper, “False Memories of Fabricated Political Events,” by Steven J. Frenda, Eric D. Knowles, William Saletan, and Elizabeth Loftus. It grew out of a great experiment conducted by Slate, in which people saw four photographs of political events, three of them real pictures and one that had been doctored. In the podcast, you’ll hear from Loftus, a professor at UC Irvine, who is a leading scholar in memory in general and false memory in particular.

Here, to give you a sense of how the experiment worked, is what one of the fake pictures looked like:

Participants in the experiment were shown a doctored photo, right (the original is at left), with a caption reading “April 20, 2009: President Obama, greeting heads of state at a United Nations conference, shakes the hand of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. White House aides say the encounter was unplanned and the handshake was a formality.” In reality, however, the event never happened and there is no recorded meeting of Obama and Ahmadinejad.


Audio Transcript

Kai RYSSDAL: Time now for a little Freakonomics Radio.  It's that moment every couple of weeks we talk to Stephen Dubner, the co-author of the books and blog of the same name.  It is “the hidden side of everything.”  Dubner, how are you, man?


Stephen J. DUBNER: I'm great, thanks, Kai.  I've been thinking about you actually, lately. 


RYSSDAL: Really?


DUBNER: Yeah, I've been reminiscing.  I was thinking about the very first radio piece y

that you and I did together, back at Yankee Stadium.  Let me take you back …  


RYSSDAL: “So here we are and this is great.  I’m having a good time. But the game doesn’t start for like an hour and a half. Why are we at batting practice?”


DUBNER: You remember that, Kai, yes?


RYSSDAL: (Laughs) I do.  Yes.


DUBNER: You remember, we were watching batting practice, and we saw A-Rod, Alex Rodriguez, hitting all those massive home runs into the bleachers?


RYSSDAL: Yeah.  Shocking now, huh?


DUBNER: Well, Kai, it's funny you remember that -- because, in fact, it did not happen.


RYSSDAL: Whoa, no!  I was there.   I was there.


DUBNER: We were there.  We didn’t see A-Rod hit any home runs. But you did just beautifully illustrate the topic of our conversation today, which is false memory.  Thank you very much for playing along.


RYSSDAL: Anytime.  I'm glad to help.  Please continue. 


DUBNER: I got to thinking about this topic during all the round-up interviews that Hillary Clinton has been doing recently, reminiscing about her very eventful term as Secretary of State. And I was reminded of another Clinton reminiscence that turned out to be a bit off. Kai, I'm interested to know if you remember this piece of tape.


Hillary CLINTON "I remember landing under sniper fire. There was supposed to be some kind of a greeting ceremony at the airport, but instead we just ran with our heads down to get into the vehicles to get to our base."


RYSSDAL: Yeah, the thing was, there was no sniper fire.  Right?


DUBNER: That's exactly right.  Hillary Clinton later said that she “misspoke” or maybe misremembered.  So, to speak about misremembering, here is Elizabeth Loftus:


Elizabeth LOFTUS: “What I love about this example is that it shows you that all that education, all that experience, all those IQ points -- that Yale Law School degree, it doesn’t protect you from having a false memory.“


DUBNER: So, Kai, Loftus is a psych professor at U.C.-Irvine.  She's a leading scholar in memory generally and false memory in particular.  Recently, she and a couple of colleagues, along with the online magazine Slate, completed a study.  And this study was huge – 5,000 participants – and they looked into how well we, people generally, remember political events.  So, what they would do is the researchers would show people photographs of  various political events. But the gimmick was that each participant would see four photographs – three of them real, and then one that was doctored. So, for instance, George Bush hanging out at his ranch with his buddy Roger Clemens during Hurricane Katrina – which did not happen. Or they'd see a picture Barack Obama in a nice friendly handshake with President Ahmadinejad of Iran, which also never happened. But Kai, here's the amazing thing: about half the participants in the study said they did remember the thing that never happened. Here’s Elizabeth Loftus again:


LOFTUS: “Many individuals wrote in details that expanded upon just the claim: 'I remember seeing this photograph, I remember seeing this photograph of President Obama shaking the hand of the president of Iran.' And they may even tell you something about the feelings they remember having at the time they saw that photograph for the first time. But of course they couldn’t have ever seen it before because it was completely made up with Photoshop. ”


RYSSDAL: That’s crazy, man.


DUBNER: It is crazy.  Honestly, it gets crazier. The crazier part speaks to how partisan we are, our country.  I'm not just talking about the politicians but the rest of us, too. What Loftus and her colleagues did – they did a follow-up study and they found that Democrats and Republicans “remembered” different fake events very differently. Which is to say a Democratic voter was much more likely to think the picture of Bush and Roger Clemens was real, and a Republican was more likely to believe that Obama had really shaken hands with Ahmadinejad.


RYSSDAL: And one wonders why Washington is in the state it is in!


DUBNER: It's depressing.  You could say that we do a lot of it on purpose – maybe a lot of it is just the way we're hardwired to root for our teams.  I will tell you this: the research also suggests that there may be a way to improve, however, this gridlock in Washington, as long as you’re willing to engage in a little bit of trickery.


RYSSDAL: In Washington?  Never.


DUBNER: What I'm thinking, Kai, is this: a nice doctored photograph – you and I could put this together – of President Obama and House Speaker John Boehner, maybe shooting skeet together?


RYSSDAL: We totally could!


DUBNER: Or how about the two of them at a ballgame in Yankee Stadium.  Just like you and I!  Although, the more I think about it, the less sure I am that you and I were actually ever actually at Yankee Stadium at all …


RYSSDAL: I was there, dude.  I was there.  Stephen Dubner. is the web site.  That was pretty cool!


DUBNER: Thanks, Kai.  Thanks for having me.

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  1. Andrew says:

    I would love to see & hear freakonomics tackle the controversial “Buy American” issue. Is buying American better for the US or not?

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    • frankenduf says:

      better for Americans, worse for american corporations

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      • Vanguard says:

        that’s actually not accurate otherwise NAFTA would not be popular with economists since different countries specialize in different types of products. You have to evaluate price and quality to be able to make that judgment from the consumers’ standpoint – to assume otherwise is a lie.

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      • Andrew says:

        It would be interesting o see if there are any unintended consequences either way.

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      • James says:

        Off the topic,but I think it depends on your definition of better, I suppose, and also of which particular Americans you think are better off. Take cars as the classic example: if I buy an American car (that is, a product of the Detroit 3), some number of American auto workers are perhaps better off, but I am much worse off since I’m stuck driving an oversized, gas-guzzling POS. That makes me unhappy (’cause I think driving something that handles like a waterbed is unpleasant), diverts more of my money into the hands of oil companies (and eventually to jihadists), etc…

        When we get right down to it, this “Buy American” thing is just saying that we ought to purchase shoddy goods. When American companies choose to produce quality goods at anything like competitive prices, they can sell those goods, and not just in the USA.

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  2. Addy Satija says:

    I am reminded of the time when, as the only Republican in the room, I had to listen to my friends talk about Sarah Palin quotes such as “I can see Russia from my house!” that weren’t Sarah Palin quotes at all but rather Tina Fey quotes. When I pointed that out, a lot of people seemed to agree that they had actually seen the interview where they heard the former Governor say those exact words.
    Your post makes this really interesting because now we know that the major news outlets tend to be politically biased and to think that they have the power to instill false memories into people is worrisome.

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    • Carl says:

      To be fair, Gov. Palin did attempt to suggest that she had some insight into foreign policy relationships between the U.S. and Russia because of the latter’s proximity to her state. Her legacy as a stateswoman, such as it is, is certainly diminished when people believe that she said the satirical Tina Fey line, and there is no excuse for a news organization suggesting that she did (although I haven’t heard one do that). That said, her actual statement did suggest that her proximity to Russia mattered. “Remembering” Ahmedinejad at the White House and shaking hands with Pres. Obama strikes me as a qualitatively more problematic error.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1
    • Zach says:

      Addy, I wouldn’t be too worried, false memories have snaked into the memories of folks on both sides of the political spectrum. Remember when Al Gore said he “invented the internet?”

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  3. Jamie says:

    To James concerning US made products such as cars. If you look around you will see many US (Detroit 3) cars on the road. And they last a long time. They wouldn’t make gas guzzlers if people didn’t buy them! As far as price, those could be less if the US manufacturers weren’t saddled with dealing with crooked unions and it’s lazy workers that unnaturally jack up the wages!!

    Just like what happened to Hostess! If not for the red oculus actions of the Govt at least one of them would be gone!

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  4. Nat Fondell says:

    Thought you guys would get a kick out of this causation/correlation cartoon:

    You’ve probably already seen it.

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